Explaining the last scene in Endgame and why it doesnt break the movie
Ok, so this should go without saying but given the ENTIRE POINT of this post is to explain (in my opinion) how the last scene of Avengers Endgame doesnt break the rules set by the rest of the movie...its got SPOILERS. So if you dont want SPOILERS and havnt seen the movie...leave now.
Ok, so the last scene of Avengers Endgame has gotten ALOT of attention, because it seemingly doesnt work in the logic of the movie. This being the scene where old man Steve Rogers is just chilling on a park bench when Bucky/Falcon/Hulk are waiting for his younger self to return from dropping off the infinity stones.
Now there are two reasons this scene allegedly doesnt work.
1) according to the rules of time travel in the movie, you have to return to the same point (the Avengers Time Machine Platform)you left from...which Cap didnt cause he was on the bench.
2) In the scene he gives his shield to Falcon, but it was previously destroyed in the movie.
In the days following the movie, there was a fan theory, that I liked, that suggested basically cap went rouge and basically spent his life in an alternate universe with alternate Peggy Carter, until some point after the events of Endgame, then traveled what for him would be backwards in time...as the movie has established you can set the place and time of your arrival even from the suit itself as Cap and Tony did going back to the 60's, and basically just hung out on the park bench until he was noticed. But the films directors, the Russo Brothers, seemingly shot this down.
Which left a second fan theory, that old man Steve had basically been hiding in our timeline all along...just keeping to the shadows. But that would violate all the rules of time travel the movie laid out...specifically that you cant actually change the past, you can only create alternate realities. Also some people got pissed because of the implication that this means old man steve just sat back and did nothing while all the bad things we've seen in the movies happen to everyone he knows
So how do we wind up with old man Steve on the park bench without breaking the laws of time travel?
It turns out the answer is really simple: You dont. But what people seem to have overlooked is there is one device in the MCU thats already been established as being able to break the established laws of time travel...and it happens to one Steve has easy access to.
The Time Stone.
remember his entire mission is to return all 6 infinity stones...including the time stone. And consider what we saw in Infinity War. Scarlet Witch destroys the Mind Stone, Thanos then uses the Time Stone to reverse the Mind Stones destruction.
Now there are two ways to look at this.
1) given that you cant change the past, according to the laws of MCU Science, what Thanos actually does is create a split reality, but keep both results inside the same reality...IE the Mind Stone is both destroyed and not destroyed. (this is the comic book explanation for how the comic book version of Vision is originally the android human torch, but the android human torch still exists independently)
2) The Time stone is so powerful it actually violates the laws of the universe..and therefore it can change the past.
End of the day, it doesnt really matter, both work out exactly the same...time travel in the more traditional sense (IE Back to the future...dont interfere with the past or youll mess up the present) is possible.
But humans cant use the Infinity Stones or they will die, just like Iron Man, right?
No, actually. Theres an entire movie based on a regular human using this particular infinity stone, and hes perfectly alive...Dr. Strange. In fact based on the lore of that movie, there are generations of humans whove been able to use the thing...as long as its housed in the Eye of Aggamotto.
Which means basically at the end of the day, the Eye of Aggamotto is a giant power dampener (as for the record is the Tesseract and the Scepter, since both of them seem to allow mortals to use infinity gems without a problem). And as it turns out the Eye of Aggamotto happens to be with the very person Steve needs to return the stone too, the Ancient One.
It should be noted, in the Dr. Strange movie, it is in fact the Ancient One who introduces the idea that the dark realm, mirror realm, ect are all basically alternate realities. So clearly shes skilled at moving between realities.
So yeah, basically Steve saves the Time Stone for last when returning the stone and gets the Ancient One to use the Time Stone and send him back to the past of his own reality.
Course hes now operating under traditional time travel rules...so he cant interfere in anyway or he will mess up the future..so he basically stays in hiding cause he knows at the end of the day, everything works out. Its why they never revealed Peggy Carter's husband's name or identity, or why he wont tell Falcon who he married, he has to keep his secret. (its also probably why alternate reality Peggy carter in the 70's has steves picture of her desk, despite the fact shes married at this point in her life...youd think her husband would be a bit pissed unless he was Steve). Also worth noting the comics at least established the super soldier serum extends steves lifespan, so assuming the same it true in the movies, its not unbelievable hed be alive at 108 or so, as he would be in 2023 if he hadnt been in the ice.
Now yes its still a dick move maybe to not try to interfere, but thats also the point of his character arc...in Phase 1, Iron Man was the one whod always pick self interest over the greater good, and Cap the greater good over self interest. The entire point of Endgame was them basically switching positions, Tony dies for the greater good and Steve lives and picks his own self interest for once.
But this still doesnt explain the shield. Hows that intact? Time Stone would seem to explain that too, have the Stone remake the shield by rewinding it to before it was broken...except Steve doesnt appear to have taken the shield with him when he left.
Luckily theres a place he can get one pretty easily. Its from the same reality as the Soul and Power Gems.
Remember in the Time Heist, they only sent 3 teams, so those two gems came from the same reality.
For those not familiar with the Stone names, that would be the War Machine/Nebula/Hawkeye/Black Widow team.
More to the point, it is that team that accidentally attracted the attention of Thanos, so it is that realities (referred to from here on as S&P) Thanos that was erased later in our dimension.
And keep in mind S&P Thanos is from 2012. Long before Infinity War, and technically just barely before the Guardians formed. Which means in the S&P Universe, there is no Thanos when 2018 rolls around...so there is no snap. The S&P Avengers dont know it yet, but they technically won that fight before they ever knew about it.
Now despite the departure of the S&P Thanos, there is no reason to suspect that will have any immediate impact on an earth still unaware of his existence. So presumably S&P earth's history proceeds just like ours.
Which means Civil War happens in 2014. Which means S&P's Cap drops his shield at the feet of a defeated Tony Stark and leaves.
Now in our reality Tony only returns Cap's shield in 2023 to fight Thanos, an event that will no longer happen in S&P's reality. Furthermore in our reality (and presumably S&P as it happens pre thanos) after Civil War, in Spider Man Homecoming Happy Hogan talks to Stark about the new shield hes designing for Cap, which our cap probably knows about, so its not like S&P Cap wont get a shield if he and S&P Tony reconcile.
So theres a perfectly good shield laying around, and our Steve Rogers knows exactly where and when to find it.
So basically when he returns the Soul and Power Stones in 2012, he jumps (or waits?) to 2014 in the same reality, and steals back his intact Shield, before returning the Time Stone to its reality.
So there you have it....old man cap on a bench with a fully intact shield, all wrapped up in a nice little bow, all thanks the Infinity Stone, literally name the TIME STONE, that somehow didnt occur to people might be a time travel device.
Incidentally this might also result in Black Widow not being dead. Theoretically the Time Stone could reverse her death, and create a reality in which she is both dead and not dead, so our avengers still have the time stone from her death...but shes also alive.
The only thing stopping this is Steve not having access to Eye of Aggamotto....unless he took a few years to learn to use the thing and convinced some version of Dr. Strange or the Ancient One to let him borrow it and/or do the resurrection themselves....
Ok, so the last scene of Avengers Endgame has gotten ALOT of attention, because it seemingly doesnt work in the logic of the movie. This being the scene where old man Steve Rogers is just chilling on a park bench when Bucky/Falcon/Hulk are waiting for his younger self to return from dropping off the infinity stones.
Now there are two reasons this scene allegedly doesnt work.
1) according to the rules of time travel in the movie, you have to return to the same point (the Avengers Time Machine Platform)you left from...which Cap didnt cause he was on the bench.
2) In the scene he gives his shield to Falcon, but it was previously destroyed in the movie.
In the days following the movie, there was a fan theory, that I liked, that suggested basically cap went rouge and basically spent his life in an alternate universe with alternate Peggy Carter, until some point after the events of Endgame, then traveled what for him would be backwards in time...as the movie has established you can set the place and time of your arrival even from the suit itself as Cap and Tony did going back to the 60's, and basically just hung out on the park bench until he was noticed. But the films directors, the Russo Brothers, seemingly shot this down.
Which left a second fan theory, that old man Steve had basically been hiding in our timeline all along...just keeping to the shadows. But that would violate all the rules of time travel the movie laid out...specifically that you cant actually change the past, you can only create alternate realities. Also some people got pissed because of the implication that this means old man steve just sat back and did nothing while all the bad things we've seen in the movies happen to everyone he knows
So how do we wind up with old man Steve on the park bench without breaking the laws of time travel?
It turns out the answer is really simple: You dont. But what people seem to have overlooked is there is one device in the MCU thats already been established as being able to break the established laws of time travel...and it happens to one Steve has easy access to.
The Time Stone.
remember his entire mission is to return all 6 infinity stones...including the time stone. And consider what we saw in Infinity War. Scarlet Witch destroys the Mind Stone, Thanos then uses the Time Stone to reverse the Mind Stones destruction.
Now there are two ways to look at this.
1) given that you cant change the past, according to the laws of MCU Science, what Thanos actually does is create a split reality, but keep both results inside the same reality...IE the Mind Stone is both destroyed and not destroyed. (this is the comic book explanation for how the comic book version of Vision is originally the android human torch, but the android human torch still exists independently)
2) The Time stone is so powerful it actually violates the laws of the universe..and therefore it can change the past.
End of the day, it doesnt really matter, both work out exactly the same...time travel in the more traditional sense (IE Back to the future...dont interfere with the past or youll mess up the present) is possible.
But humans cant use the Infinity Stones or they will die, just like Iron Man, right?
No, actually. Theres an entire movie based on a regular human using this particular infinity stone, and hes perfectly alive...Dr. Strange. In fact based on the lore of that movie, there are generations of humans whove been able to use the thing...as long as its housed in the Eye of Aggamotto.
Which means basically at the end of the day, the Eye of Aggamotto is a giant power dampener (as for the record is the Tesseract and the Scepter, since both of them seem to allow mortals to use infinity gems without a problem). And as it turns out the Eye of Aggamotto happens to be with the very person Steve needs to return the stone too, the Ancient One.
It should be noted, in the Dr. Strange movie, it is in fact the Ancient One who introduces the idea that the dark realm, mirror realm, ect are all basically alternate realities. So clearly shes skilled at moving between realities.
So yeah, basically Steve saves the Time Stone for last when returning the stone and gets the Ancient One to use the Time Stone and send him back to the past of his own reality.
Course hes now operating under traditional time travel rules...so he cant interfere in anyway or he will mess up the future..so he basically stays in hiding cause he knows at the end of the day, everything works out. Its why they never revealed Peggy Carter's husband's name or identity, or why he wont tell Falcon who he married, he has to keep his secret. (its also probably why alternate reality Peggy carter in the 70's has steves picture of her desk, despite the fact shes married at this point in her life...youd think her husband would be a bit pissed unless he was Steve). Also worth noting the comics at least established the super soldier serum extends steves lifespan, so assuming the same it true in the movies, its not unbelievable hed be alive at 108 or so, as he would be in 2023 if he hadnt been in the ice.
Now yes its still a dick move maybe to not try to interfere, but thats also the point of his character arc...in Phase 1, Iron Man was the one whod always pick self interest over the greater good, and Cap the greater good over self interest. The entire point of Endgame was them basically switching positions, Tony dies for the greater good and Steve lives and picks his own self interest for once.
But this still doesnt explain the shield. Hows that intact? Time Stone would seem to explain that too, have the Stone remake the shield by rewinding it to before it was broken...except Steve doesnt appear to have taken the shield with him when he left.
Luckily theres a place he can get one pretty easily. Its from the same reality as the Soul and Power Gems.
Remember in the Time Heist, they only sent 3 teams, so those two gems came from the same reality.
For those not familiar with the Stone names, that would be the War Machine/Nebula/Hawkeye/Black Widow team.
More to the point, it is that team that accidentally attracted the attention of Thanos, so it is that realities (referred to from here on as S&P) Thanos that was erased later in our dimension.
And keep in mind S&P Thanos is from 2012. Long before Infinity War, and technically just barely before the Guardians formed. Which means in the S&P Universe, there is no Thanos when 2018 rolls around...so there is no snap. The S&P Avengers dont know it yet, but they technically won that fight before they ever knew about it.
Now despite the departure of the S&P Thanos, there is no reason to suspect that will have any immediate impact on an earth still unaware of his existence. So presumably S&P earth's history proceeds just like ours.
Which means Civil War happens in 2014. Which means S&P's Cap drops his shield at the feet of a defeated Tony Stark and leaves.
Now in our reality Tony only returns Cap's shield in 2023 to fight Thanos, an event that will no longer happen in S&P's reality. Furthermore in our reality (and presumably S&P as it happens pre thanos) after Civil War, in Spider Man Homecoming Happy Hogan talks to Stark about the new shield hes designing for Cap, which our cap probably knows about, so its not like S&P Cap wont get a shield if he and S&P Tony reconcile.
So theres a perfectly good shield laying around, and our Steve Rogers knows exactly where and when to find it.
So basically when he returns the Soul and Power Stones in 2012, he jumps (or waits?) to 2014 in the same reality, and steals back his intact Shield, before returning the Time Stone to its reality.
So there you have it....old man cap on a bench with a fully intact shield, all wrapped up in a nice little bow, all thanks the Infinity Stone, literally name the TIME STONE, that somehow didnt occur to people might be a time travel device.
Incidentally this might also result in Black Widow not being dead. Theoretically the Time Stone could reverse her death, and create a reality in which she is both dead and not dead, so our avengers still have the time stone from her death...but shes also alive.
The only thing stopping this is Steve not having access to Eye of Aggamotto....unless he took a few years to learn to use the thing and convinced some version of Dr. Strange or the Ancient One to let him borrow it and/or do the resurrection themselves....
Hey, man, it's your cousin Mike. Couldn't help thinking of you when I saw the movie and Cap finally said "Avengers: Assemble!". Hope it was worth the wait. I think your theory is sound, but I would change some of the specifics.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I wouldn't say it was the time gem that Cap used to travel to the bench because that's not how the time gem has been shown to work (at least it doesn't work like that circa: Avengers: Endgame, who knows what rules they're going to come up with in the future). The time-stone can reverse time but thus far it's effects have been localized to specific objects/spacial areas. The most expansive it's ever gotten is a city.
I think instead that Captain America returned five of the stones to their specific time periods, and then once he arrived in 1970 to replace the space stone, he chose to remain with Peggy creating a second reality. He would have rebuilt the Shield while in this reality, because he is still active as Captain America*.
* Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading a magazine that claimed there was an editorial snafu concerning the return of Captain America that resulted in the creation of two separate characters operating as "Captain America"; Steve Rogers and a "Bad Cap" who was either evil or insane. I believe the film pays homage to this by having the time-traveling Steve Rogers masquerade as a Hydra Agent who fights "our" Captain America. Anyway, I prefer to think that Steve remained active as Captain America, since it's completely faithful to the comics for their to be two separate men running around using the shield.
Steve Rogers remains in this reality for over forty years, until Reality #2 reaches the same calendar year that Tony Stark died in Reality #1. He then retrieves the Reality Stone and uses it to travel from reality #1 to Reality #2** and hands the rebuilt shield off to The Falcon.
**There's an action set piece in "Thor: The Dark World" that clearly shows the Aether creating bridges between different realities. At least that's what I prefer to think is happening, because otherwise he's just traveling through space.